Amnesty International: Breath

The unofficial world record in holding your breath underwater
Probably belongs to a prisoner in an Iraqi or Afghan prison. The prisoners are exposed to the so called "enhanced interrogation techniques" by american soldiers. These techniques include "near death drowning experiences" where the head of the victim is held under water.
It's torture no matter what George Bush calls it.

Agency: BBDO, Copenhagen, Denmark
Creative Director: Carsten Schiott, Mads Ohrt
Copywriter: Jesper Hansen
Art Director: Olga Bastian, Jesper Isholm
Photographer: Martin Soeby
Typographer: Olga Bastian

40 comments

popdistortion's picture
popdistortion
1594 pencils

The harsh reality of the so-called civilized world. The copy is a bit difficult to read though. Otherwise a very subtle and beautiful layout.

ancho mucho's picture
ancho mucho
42 pencils

anchomucho
yah..very good idea...

Jonny Lonestar's picture
Jonny Lonestar
284 pencils

i wish they'd run these in the states... but then people would probably boycott the publications for criticizing GW...

America, tha only country that travels around the world to spread democracy, yet it's citizens don't cross the street to vote...

writergeekdez's picture
writergeekdez
255 pencils

i crossed the street. i picketed. i campaigned. i donated to everyone against him.

and this ad makes me even more ashamed of him and about half the people in my country for not seeing the sadistic truth behind his "shucky-darn" persona.

mikelite's picture
mikelite
1031 pencils

I second that.

MADE in the USA's picture
MADE in the USA
434 pencils

I wonder which one of these gentlemen is the one responsible for helping to plan the attack on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon?? They didn’t just murder nearly 4000 people that morning; they destroyed tens of thousands of family’s that Sept 11 2001.

Which one of these men is the one who helped carry out the plan to murder Yet hundreds more on a train in England?

Are we talking about revenge on members of alkeida? ...No Which one of these men finally told an interrogator about an attack that was planned for just a few months ago that would have murdered maybe 50,000 60,000 people, but fortunately oblivious to us all, the bombing never happened and no one had to die.

I wonder which one of these men has knowledge about the biggest terrorist plot ever conceived to date, against which they call the infidels. A murderous bombing that has yet to take place and can be stopped.

Let me ask you something, For those of you who have family. What would you be willing to do to keep one or two of these men from killing your child? Maybe a son or daughter. What would you be willing to do to find out anyway possible to stop the murder bombing of your Mom and Dad? Maybe your sister or wife.

Who cares about the George Bush Bull Sh** All of us no mater where you live whether its the US or Europe East Africa, Belgrade. Or wherever ..We are all potential casualties. Osama Ben Laden admitted to being responsible and his alkieda terrorist/torturer’s still send threats and have been planning now for years to kill as many people possible and why? What’s so bad about the rest of us?
We don’t believe the way they do.
You and I are religious infidels who deserve nothing but death because of religious differences. Sound like a bunch of crazy ass holes to me. And some would call George W. Bush
the problem.
For Tens of Thousands of families that have been torn apart. Widowed Husbands widowed Wives, Parentless Children, murdered parents. These questions don’t hit home they are home. It isn’t Surreal to any of them...

It is Real.

ivan's picture
ivan

According to many Americans 9/11 was an inside job. There is not much proof for or against any theory unfortunately.

Ivan Raszl, admin of AotW

pindaro's picture
pindaro
526 pencils

So If I understand right, every live in america is worth 5.3 lives elsewhere.

This is the score so far:
Osama Bin-laden = 4,000 dead people
George Bush = 21,557 dead people ( that is 18,988 iraquis and 2,569 Gi's).

I say people, because this 18k Iraqis had family, daughters and sons just like everybody else.

Wake Up!!

Mabakima's picture
Mabakima
84 pencils

I hope you noticed your line of thinking doesn't differ from that of Osama or other religious fundamentalists.

And by the way, it's Al-Qaeda, not "alkeida."

MADE in the USA's picture
MADE in the USA
434 pencils

I typed Europe.. I meant Great Britain

puck's picture
puck
70 pencils

i lost two college friends in 9/11. my mom was working at a hospital blocks away and i couldn't get in touch with her, or my father, for two days. two torturous days.

that said, i don't think 9/11 should be used as an excuse to torture people.

i am one of the people of whom you are speaking and i feel sick to my stomach at the thought of the personal tragedy of my friends and family being used to justify inhumane practices like water boarding, sensory deprivation, etc.

really, if we're willing to torture and kill thousands of people out of suspicion that they may be "terrorists" - even though the overwhelming majority of them are not - how are we so different from those few who see all americans as the great satan?

i mean, there are a small minority of westerners who have been complicit in all kinds of terrorism in the middle east. from giving millions of dollars of military aid to the taliban to delivering chemical and biological weapons to saddam in his fight against iran to installing and shoring up the oppressive government of the reza shah in iran to the list goes on...

if the hawks among us find it so easy to demonize all muslims and arabs, how is that so different from the hawks (radical fundamentalists) among them to demonize all of us?

and, if all that's so easy, what's the way out?

further, according to people who've been subjected to torture, it's not an effective interrogation tool. john mccain, when tortured by the n vietnamese, gave up the names of the starting line of the green bay packers and said those were the names of the soldiers he was stationed with.

among other things, torture gives a pre-packaged excuse to the "other" side in its recruitment and popular support campaigns.

i, for one, prefer to live for love than to live in fear.

peace and blessings

ps. hopefully, we'll have some less controversial ads spark so much discussion soon...

buddhaofsuburbia's picture
buddhaofsuburbia
49 pencils

Precisely, why this campaign works. It's controversial. And sparks a discussion so huge (above posts). Well done!

ALAA's picture
ALAA
439 pencils

Great campaigns... Emotional...

Sorry for what happened in 9/11 and sorry for what happened in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, Palestine, Lebanon... And Sorry for what will happen after... (Dirty)

itsme's picture
itsme
14 pencils

an eye for an eye and the whole world will be blind (mahatma gandhi)

osama and george bush are equally horrible

ALAA's picture
ALAA
439 pencils

an eye for an eye and the whole world will be blind (mahatma gandhi)... Thank you for this great line

Jonny Lonestar's picture
Jonny Lonestar
284 pencils

it's good to see intelligent debate on here....

vurtomatic's picture
vurtomatic
364 pencils

The copy's the same across all three ads. Would be better if there was some variation.

puck's picture
puck
70 pencils

well, the copy's a little different from one to the next, but more variation would be good...

i wonder, and maybe i'm missing where ivan's got it listed, what medium this is... is it a poster, magazine ad, ...?

the type seems so light and, as the whole thing's black and white, i'm not so sure it would draw me in to read it right away unless it were in a newspaper or magazine (even in a newspaper, it might blend with the rest of the b&w-ness)...

hmm...

xi's picture
xi
12 pencils

At no time have I said that torture is acceptable These ads say what they say, while I have seen no legitimate proof that any of it is true. Its apparent to me that Amnesty International is satisfied to take their advertising hints from the folks at peta. Misdirection, slight of hand, ambiguity, untruths.

Ivan, osama ben laden is on tape talking about the bombings of 9/11, exactly what his intentions were. It was produced weeks before the tragedy and some time after the bombings, was broadcast on aljazera. There really is no doubt of the person responsible.

I wouldn’t say everything is perfect at gitmo. But you must remember, people who have committed crimes against others, murder or other serious civil crimes, also those with known affiliations to terror networks make up the bulk of the individuals detained there.
Iraq had a system of law enforcement, People who were greatly informed of those with evolvement in terrorist activities. It’s not as if hundreds of innocent Iraqis (innocent of any wrongdoing) were just forced from their homes. and taken to prison. Think about it for a second. America in all of its years has never been accused or charged with mistreating military prisoners, not that the US has a perfect record, but other countries certainly have earned a global reputation for being extraordinarily cruel and unusually grotesque about the torture and murder of their POW. If it were true of the US it would be documented just like other countries have been.
The Shias and Sunnies are turning against the Kurds this very minute. Three Kurds were found tortured to death; they have been killing one another for twenty fives years.

No pindaro George Bush is not responsible for 19000 dead Iraqis. GWB is not at war with Iraq...
The United States is.
pindaro do you know who is killing most of those Iraqis?.... Other Iraqis!
That’s right all those Suicide bombers and bus bombers and building bombers not to mention the sects running around spraying automatic rifle fire and grenades all over the place.
Those are Iraqis killing Iraqis.
As for American Marines.. if you fire upon them, you can bet your ass they will shoot back.

I have a question for you friends.. If you became aware that a mad man was after you, that he had already horribly killed some of your own, he even told you himself that he would never stop until he killed you all, and a bunch of others. and he proved he could.

What would you do??

Seriously, I like to know what you would do about it??

later

MADE in the USA's picture
MADE in the USA
434 pencils

Sorry, I’m using the laptop of a colleague while I wait for him to get his but in gear and take me to lunch. and forgot to sign in.
I’m responsible for the above xi comments. Don’t tell him that I’ve stolen his identity. \ ; )

ALAA's picture
ALAA
439 pencils

How you can be so sure from what you are saying... For me It looks like one side of a story... Another victim of an American propaganda accepting what you get and what you see...

( I am not with any terrorist attack at your country or another one but their is no smoke without fire ) ....

think abut it for one minute

)Open your mind(

tjlights's picture
tjlights
2 pencils

Hey Nice ad. That's right... there is no excuse for torture. Too bad so much focus is on the U.S. here instead of the real horrors against humanity like Sadamn, Osama, Kim Jong Il, Ahmadinejad, etc., etc..

You all remember the U.S., right? That big evil country who single handedly clothes, feeds, protects, medicates and educates the entire world. But I guess it's easier to keep your pride and bite the hand that feeds you rather than look at the whole picture. Oh and you'll never admit the U.S. is such a global benefactor but your leaders do... everytime they come to the U.S. and beg for more.

Chew on this: During WWII the entire world united against a growing evil called fascism. If the U.S. is such an evil today then why isn't there a similar unified global force against it now? I'd tell you why but spoiled, adolescent-minded, historically-retarded lemmings hardly ever listen to common sense anyway.

Mabakima's picture
Mabakima
84 pencils

Oh please. Chew on this yourself: During WWII your country had Japanese concentration camps on US soil. Your country dropped not one, but two atomic bombs over Japan, killing hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians. And in my country (the Philippines), during the Filipino-American war (1901-1903), a US general ordered every male above 12 years old to be slaughtered on Samar Island. His famous (or rather infamous) words to his troops were, "the more you kill, the more it pleases me."

Please don't delude yourself that the world will always beg and grovel before the mighty US. The US may the Rome of today. But where is Rome now?

MADE in the USA's picture
MADE in the USA
434 pencils

I applaud you ‘tjlights’ because what you say is true. I agree with you as well ‘mabakima’ because you also speak the truth. You see their is no perfect life or government or person However when one takes all into consideration the United States is there for most any country when the chips are down. And yes we are responsible for some injustices as well.

buddhaofsuburbia's picture
buddhaofsuburbia
49 pencils

And the posts keep coming. For sheer talk value: Great ad campaign!

puck's picture
puck
70 pencils

...because, in WWII, we were "there" for the rest of the world before Japan hit Pearl Harbor... right. hmm... unless you consider staying out of the war and trading with Germany (Ford, IBM, Coca Cola, in particular, were making a wad over there before Japan bombed us - and big business and government have been cooperating with one another pretty much since the inception of this great nation)... i would say we were just looking out for our own interests (and once it really sank in that both Germany and Japan wanted to take over the world, including the US, we got a little motivated - even so, it was to save our own asses)...

just as we were looking out for our own interests in Hawaii (white American sugar planters didn't want to surrender their vote to landless Hawaiians)
Cuba, Nicaragua, Honduras... (fruit companies)
Panama/Colombia (control of inter-oceanic transport)
the Phillipines (strategic location for pacific military movements & general show of force)
Iran (1953) - protection of oil fields for multinational profit-mongering (mind you, Mossadegh's law would have compensated the British government and BP for its investment in infrastructure)...
Vietnam (not really sure what the benefit was to anyone of this one)
Afghanistan (1980s) (umm... fighting communism with fundamentalist islam?)
Afghanistan (2001) (overthrowing the Taliban government we placed in power during the 80s with hundreds of millions of dollars of military funding... ooops!)
Iran and Iraq (1970s-80s) (supporting Saddam to fight the Iranian religious government which came to power after we destroyed Iranian democracy in the 50s - supporting the Iranians by trading weapons in order to raise money for the Contras in Nicaragua)
Iraq (2003) (overthrowing Saddam because he sponsored Al Qaeda... oh, wait, he didn't do that... because he's got WMDs... oh, wait, we can't find 'em, but there definitely there... well, would you prefer that Saddam were in power? yeah, that's the real question)

these are not hiccups... these were major military actions we've undertaken... pretty much most of the major military involvements we've had since WWII... and, as mentioned above, our involvement in WWII was pretty ambiguous until we were attacked.

to try to put a positive spin on the actions of any military establishment is, as far as i can tell, misguided and disingenuous...

when there's nothing for the US to gain, we don't really make such a big issue out of things (Nazi Germany, genocide in Darfur...) or we turn a blind eye (Saddam using chemical weapons we gave him against the Kurds) or even help out a bit (the CIA and Israel's Mossad trained the Reza Shah's death squads; Noriega was on the CIA and DEA's payrolls; the Contras in Nicaragua; training and providing military support to genocidal practices by the Guatemalan government after overthrowing Jacobo Arbenz, General Pinochet was installed and built up by the US government in order to protect US mining interests; propping up the Marcos regime in the Phillipines after agressively putting down the population there... er, i mean, "liberating" the Filipinos from the Spanish - riiiight)...

as far as feeding, clothing and medicating the rest of the world... hmm... seems like you could argue that slave masters in the 1800s were feeding, clothing and medicating the people they enslaved through force... i mean, shoot, that was part of the whole argument for maintaining slavery. if we overthrow elected governments, sabotage economies and export capital from resource-rich nations by manipulation of colonial economics, it's kind of weak to go back and throw some t-shirts and penicillin at folks to show how magnanimous we are (all the while, folks like shell, bp, halliburton... are banking record profits)...

peace and blessings

MADE in the USA's picture
MADE in the USA
434 pencils

You are absolutely a perfect example (down to the expressions that you use) of why talking points are repeated over and over and over again; yours are the talking points representative of a fringe point of view whose weapon is disinformation thru extreme interpretation of information or events.
All Of It Coming From The Lofty Position of Hindsight.
Second-guessing actions taken when you ‘re far in the future of the event and outcome, and not truly having ALL the facts, is not very fair of you.
The goal of knowing history is not to use it as a weapon for derisive discontented argument, but to learn from it....“Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it”.

If American soldiers had not been involved in WWII the “American way of Life” and the choices other Countries have made that mirror American Freedom would not exist today. Hitler would have been absolutely unstoppable. If not for the USA, Russia would have fallen. Eventually all of Europe including the whole of Great Briton and Africa. until everyone who’s reading these words would be under his deadly murdering paranoid schizophrenic control.
You think six million murdered sounds like a lot?? He did that in just a few years time. If America had not risked Everything we had... putting ALL on the line to go to war with Japan, Italy and Germany at the same time, Hitler would happily have Exterminated a Billon people or more to have things his way.

War is a contradiction from within itself... Don’t be surprised by contradictive behavior from those who are/have been involved deeply in it.
The reason we have the liberty we do today is because a few people decided they would have to do bad things to very bad people to stop them from doing even more terrible things to everyone.. All people

You sit in contempt of your own country based on possible actions taken by self-serving individuals
While at the same time instances of Global Sized decision making were taking place.
Decisions that would ultimately mark the path America would take and live today. The most valuable of these-- Liberty, Freedom of Choice, Freedom of Speech is also a good one to ad.
In America (and other Countries using Democracy as a blueprint for their way of life) you can worship any God you chose (or none at all) without concern for your safety. No one will try to shoot you or kill you for it.
And Yes Liberty is the stop-gap that stands between unique individual choice and freedom for all who would chose it and living under the rule of a dictatorial totalitarian oppressor of individuality and free thought.

And once again you make a negative comment about the wealthy in America, selling a legal product legally and making a profit from it.. Why do you hate the Rich so much? is it because they provide most of the jobs available in the United States which intern makes it possible to fund (thru taxes) every Governmental and Social program that exists for every American?
I agree that companies/corporations are not being held accountable to ‘The People’ in a number of area‘s.
There should be a better definition of profiteering and should be enforced with fines and jail time.. No exceptions. However Corporations are not the enemy of the people which you would lead some to believe, They exist to provide a service and make a profit while doing so. without apology. It sounds to me like the problem for you is more about Governmental enforcement of fair practices. The power of the people can change that with the vote, something that isn’t so easily done in other countries.

Yes... indeed Yes, America has made and is making possible a better way of life for many, including many Nations.

If you were ask to leave the States where would you hope to go that would provide you with the sovereign freedom that you enjoy? it inspires self determination, creativity and personal responsibility only independence can provide. an autonomy I’m sure to which you have become greatly accustomed.

Perfect without problems?? NO. Free of mistakes and terrible injustices?? NO....

later.

MADE in the USA's picture
MADE in the USA
434 pencils

Sorry for my spelling error Great Bri(tain).

puck's picture
puck
70 pencils

guest,

that's more than a few examples - and if you think i'm some poor, misguided fool, please just read up on the past century of u.s. military actions for your own self and don't read what i write anymore.

further, if you think it's so contemptible to produce historical evidence of u.s. complicity in neo-colonialism, perhaps you'd like to answer my assertions rather than just talking empty jingoist smack.

made,

please don't put words in my mouth.

first, i don't sit in contempt of my country. there are tons of brilliant, amazing things this country has done. to use those things (such as the advent of public schooling, development of strong financial stability practices, etc.) to justify breaking the geneva conventions is messed up.

as far as world war ii, i fully recognize the strategic might our nation exercised in that war, and how crucial it was to stopping hitler. to credit the u.s. with hitler's defeat in the soviet union may be a little off-the-mark, though, as he was truly defeated by the land, just as napoleon before him. however, i wasn't arguing our strategic importance in that war. i was arguing our motivation for involvement.

we took no military role until we were attacked. to say that we fought in world war ii out of love for the other allies ignores some very important history, including our nation's history of trade with nazi germany until we officially entered the war in 1941.

next, i don't see where i made a negative comment about the wealthy in america in that comment in general terms. particular companies who acted without any ethics in world war ii, certainly; large companies which have manipulating politics in order to enrich themselves at the expense of others, certainly.

IBM sold custom-made machines to the Nazis to keep track of inmates in concentration camps, United Fruit was behind several military coups in the Americas, BP (not even an American company) was the main instigator of the overthrow of Iran's government in 1953.

there are plenty more examples that having nothing to do with "selling a product legally and making a profit from it." i'm talking about companies that use leverage in government to illegally create situations abroad involving the destruction of foreign markets, violent acquisition of other nations' resources, forceably opening markets, etc.

there are also examples of businesses with a history of ethical practices, such as the bodyshop (fair trade), starbucks (employee treatment), chroma technology corp. (employee ownership, environmental stewardship, etc.), clif bar inc. (environmental sustainability, employee wellness, etc.), dell inc. (agressive recycling programs), etc.

in fact, fortune comes out, every year, with a round up of the top-rated ethical corporations in the world. there are folks paying attention to this.

and your coloring me as a propogandist and exaggerating what i say ("Corporations are not the enemy of the people which you would lead some to believe") is really no way to conduct any kind of dialogue.

further, and i should put it better, my point was not that the united states is not responsible for good acts. my point is that the good one does does not absolve one from the bad one does. feeding and clothing people does not make up for bombing and torturing them. period.

finally, if you'd like to engage in an actual dialogue, perhaps you can speak to some of the situations i've brought up in this and the other thread, instead of just decrying how i should "love it or leave it" (which, if the founding fathers knew how much people said that, they'd be spinning in their graves).

and, please, before you talk about how no other country but the u.s. allows for freedom, please travel a bit. live abroad. meet people who've grown up in other countries. you may be startled.

thanks.

puck's picture
puck
70 pencils

guest,

i'm neither poor, miserable, nor a fool. and i'm quite happy, thanks. i'm sorry that you want to make a fellow american feel so unwelcome in his home for disagreeing with you. that aside, i hope you can find some happiness yourself. you may come across some compassion along the way.

heights.

puck's picture
puck
70 pencils

please try not to believe that made in the usa's or "guest"'s comments reflect the views of the american people. we're loving, sensitive human beings just like everyone else.

MADE in the USA's picture
MADE in the USA
434 pencils

I believe you should read my response again Puck you see I said:
--“Yours are the talking points representative of a fringe point of view whose weapon is disinformation thru extreme interpretation of information or events All Of It Coming From The Lofty Position of Hindsight“.--

You said you wanted me to comment directly to what you have said... OK
You said:
--“i don't sit in contempt of my country. there are tons of brilliant, amazing things this country has done. to use those things to justify breaking the geneva conventions is messed up“--.
(1) I said you sit in contempt because statements you’ve made in the past Please remind me an instance where the USA was found guilty of braking the Geneva Convention on prisoner care during WWII.
You also said:
--”we took no military role until we were attacked. to say that we fought in world war ii out of love for the other allies ignores some very important history“,
(2)The irony is that you are trying to change history with your very statement. My Father was an Engineer and 1ST. Sergeant before during and after WWII I’m here to tell you with absolute clarity that America was very much involved with its allies long before declaring war.
Your assertions are untrue. Furthermore I never said the USA was involved in the war out of love or anything else. You are correct on one point however America did not propose a declaration of war on any Country until being attacked.
(Whose weapon is disinformation thru extreme interpretation of information or events)
Next:
You said you didn’t make any negative comments about the rich:
--“it's kind of weak to go back and throw some t-shirts and penicillin at folks to show how magnanimous we are (all the while, folks like shell, bp, halliburton... are banking record profits“)---
(3) First of all Shell, BP, Halliburton and whoever. Are not owned exclusively by “white Folks” (Two of the three aren’t even American corporations) these are Companies that are subsidized by Investors. Large groups of people that come in every skin color who pool their money together so as to invest it in the possibility of making profit. And is not Government Entities..
(Whose weapon is disinformation thru extreme interpretation of information or events)
Next you said:
--“i'm talking about companies that use leverage in government to illegally create situations abroad involving the destruction of foreign markets, violent acquisition of other nations' resources, forceably opening markets, etc.”--
(4) You sight Corporate and Government wrong doings in a single breath in an attempt to intermingle the two. It’s a way of subtly creating a partnership or conspiracy of wrong doing that doesn’t exist.
All Corporations in the States are privately owned. We live in a free society; Corporations are not controlled by or in business with the Fed. Gov. of the USA. Companies, Corporations have the right to make decisions about the business they do actions that may not seem fair or proper to some but still decisions without Gov. interference. By the way I don’t really have a problem with a company inventing a mathematical technology that helps keep track of the number of inmates that are in prison, It’s the Capture, Incarceration, Starvation, Rape, Torture, and Murder of people who had committed no crime that I have a problem with.
I don’t believe people who Have committed crimes should be treated that way either.
(your weapon is disinformation thru extreme interpretation of information or events)
And next you said:
--“and your coloring me as a propogandist and exaggerating what i say”--
and --”instead of just decrying how i should "love it or leave it" (which, if the founding fathers knew how much people said that, they'd be spinning in their graves)”---
5) Who’s truly guilty of putting words in whose mouth? I never called, said a word or insinuated a thing about you being a “Propagandist”. And further more Puck you will not find in any of my comments my telling you to get out of America I believe in positive discourse I believe in dissenting opinions I have said absolutely nothing to change your words, in fact I’m using your words to demonstrate the difference that exists between statements you have made and what are widely considered the actual facts.
An example of disinformation.
you said:
--“and, please, before you talk about how no other country but the u.s. allows for freedom”.--
(6) Once again I never said that other countries don’t live freely.. Let’s find out what I said....
“Yes... indeed Yes, America has made and is making possible a better way of life for many, including many Nations“. That’s exactly what I said... Notice the difference? you have proven my first statement which was...
--“Yours are the talking points representative of a fringe point of view whose weapon is disinformation thru extreme and incorrect interpretation of statements, information or events.
and finally you said:
.--please travel a bit. live abroad. meet people who've grown up in other countries. you may be startled.”---
Puck now you’re just blindly throwing out passive aggressive manipulation designed to create the illusion of your superiority.

As far as Russia is concerned American forces were successful with the cooperation from all its allies, for implementing a strangle hold on the flow of supplies from the German military push into Russia. Strategic American and allied troop movements also caused Hitler to experience depleting and insufficiently trained troops, making the attack on Russia one of the bigger strategical mistakes in history.
America also flew 100’s of cargo planes to Russia filled with advancements in technology ect. they would not have had if not for the U.S.

I believe you should consider this fact of life; Since the beginning of known documentation of events on the earth there is no Country no People or King that has ever existed that is free of guilt from Wrong, immoral, hurtful, grievous acts against its people and the people of other countries.... Because of pride, greed and power. I personally wish it hadn’t worked out like that, I’d like to see it change. however This is a fact that has never changed... unfortunately.
“Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it”.

later

MADE in the USA's picture
MADE in the USA
434 pencils

-----“please try not to believe that made in the usa's or "guest"'s comments reflect the views of the american people. we're loving, sensitive human beings just like everyone else“-----.

Just another example Puck of how your mind works, outright lies and character assassination said with the motivation and the hope of making yourself look superior.

You and Amnesty International must see eye to eye. You both like to make statements without the slightest foundation of truth behind your words.

Provide for me one statement I have made that would lead one to believe that I am anything less than a
loving, sensitive human being!
Go ahead you liar find one, its all there for the public to read.

But before you do remember this I am a loving, sensitive human being, however I am also the person who will meet an unsolicited encroachment on my way of life or my family with severe consequences for anyone who wrongfully believes they will be successful.
Go ahead Puck find one.

later

puck's picture
puck
70 pencils

what “white Folks” am i talking about? i said "WHILE, folks"

further, i wasn't talking about violating the geneva conventions in WWII, i was talking about violating the geneva conventions in our special rendition policies and at guantanamo bay, where our atty general seems to think that the conventions don't apply.

more on world war ii, because that seems to be all you want to talk about. i stated, in my previous post, that "i fully recognize the strategic might our nation exercised in that war, and how crucial it was to stopping hitler."

you seem to believe i never said such a thing or that i think otherwise. all i stated is that the chance of hitler conquering asia was pretty slim - but that's all conjecture, neither of us knows the answer. europe, he had pretty much conquered by the time we really entered the war. and it was an amazing feat to liberate it back.

as far as my "love it or leave it" comment, it was in response to "If you were ask to leave the States where would you hope to go that would provide you with the sovereign freedom that you enjoy?" which only implies that i should "love it or leave it" rather than stating anything outright. sorry i took it so wrong. you didn't mean "love it or leave it", you meant, "if you had to love it or leave it, where would you go?" which is a discrete difference i really should have picked up on.

to answer your hypothetical, non-abrasive question, i would go to, perhaps, spain, maybe south africa, possibly brasil - the world is big, though, i wouldn't like to hold myself down just to places where i know people. there's good folks all over.

it also implies a belief that "other countries don’t live freely".

"You sight Corporate and Government wrong doings in a single breath in an attempt to intermingle the two. It’s a way of subtly creating a partnership or conspiracy of wrong doing that doesn’t exist."

there's nothing subtle about it. i have provided numerous historical examples of large businesses being involved in government and military decisions - from hawaii to guatemala to nicaragua to panama to chile to iran.

our current vice president was ceo and president of halliburton, which has had no small number of no-bid contracts since his ascension to his current governmental executive position. that's plain as day. no subtlety.

condoleeza rice has an oil tanker named after her. that's not exactly "subtle" either.

neither is the fact that enron execs sat on cheney's "energy task force", of which there is very little information because all their dealings are classified. much other information about enron is not so secret.

it goes much farther back than that, though. sanford dole (dole fruit) was the first president appointed by the united states to rule over hawaii after we liberated it from the hawaiian people. secretary of state john foster dulles' brother's law firm represented united fruit - secretary of state dulles was one of the key planners in the overthrow of the democratically-elected government of guatemala in 1954.

and, certainly, bp is not a u.s.-based company. however, it was the united states who acted on the behalf of bp in the iranian intervention to overthrow dr. mossadegh's government.

"doesn't exist"? i'm not talking about vast conspiracy theory learned elders of zion crap. i'm talking about the most powerful people in the world working really hard to protect their investments and some of them creating monumental disasters in their wakes (like iran).

there are plenty more examples than all of that, too.

as far as you not claiming that i'm all about propoganda, here's a statement you made regarding a similar ad.
"Your facts are greatly influenced by the kind of propaganda Conspiracy theorists and those without facts are spewing on line all the time."

in which you categorized me as a propogandist, a conspiracy theorist and one "without facts". i have consistently given names, dates and locations, so please don't call me a liar.

perhaps, you can posit other reasons why we overthrew Allende, Arbenz, Mossadegh, Liliʻuokalani and substantiate those claims... otherwise, you're just calling me a liar, which i take as a personal offense - you're implying that either i'm making this stuff up, i hate my country, or that i'm an idiot. i can't abide by either of those characterizations.

further, in my original copy for the "loving, sensitive" bit, i was going to quote your earlier post about how you are "a boss/regular guy that likes to make jokes and laugh, basically have fun", like anyone else, whatever nationality, but i thought it would have been demeaning to you to defend you like that.

my point was that it doesn't get us anywhere to take comments on an online forum and extrapolate from them that "all Americans are brainless". i was disheartened by that statement.

damned if you do, damned if you don't. so, please, accept my apology for making a statement that was too vague. i never meant to imply that you're any less human than anyone else - that's anaethema to my intent.

“Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it”
absolutely. that's why it's best not to sugar-coat history.

finally, none of what i've been laying out here is about me - or about me being superior to anyone at all. on the most crucial level, we're all pretty much the same - muslim, jew, hindu, atheist, american, lebanese, russian, expatriot, brasilian...

i'm really sorry that things have gotten so personal here, so let me be the one to extend the olive branch this time. i think it's important to have a real exchange and not take it to a personal level.

i hope all your days are sweet ones.

more later... gotta go...

puck's picture
puck
70 pencils

Istanbul,

i think it's great that you love your city and your country. one of my best friends is from istanbul and she's happiest when she is there, in her home, with all of it's beautiful history and architecture.

everyone should love their home.

also, i think it's kind of right for people to hold themselves responsible for their governments' actions. however, that has to stop somewhere. before you were Turkish and i was from the United States, we were both human beings. that always has to come first.

nationalism and nationality is absolute garbage because it allows you to say that all "Americans" are responsible for the atrocities of a few - and it would allow me to say the same things of the Turks/Ottomans.

my favorite turkish poet is Nazim Hikmet. why does your government, to this day, not recognize him as a TURKISH poet? why? why is the "village guards" program still running in the southeast of turkey? what of the treatment of women in certain regions of turkey, such as anatolia, where "honor killings" are still not uncommon?

further, what you have to say about the PEOPLE of the united states has less to do with who we are than who you'd like to believe we are. it's utterly wrongheaded to say that all americans are fat, eat hamburgers, coke and donuts and kill people - that's wrong on so many levels.

we are people, we love our families and want them to be safe. we have the same dreams of health and happiness as anyone else in the world.

finally, your comment about jews is not only antisemitic, it's wrong. i lost two close friends in 9/11 and one of them was jewish. did she not get this supposed warning? no. nobody did.

i think it's ridiculous for you, who know nothing about americans or, apparently, jewish people, to suggest that 9/11 was a grand jewish conspiracy when the united states has not even had a jewish vice president - ever. look at who is calling the shots in washington, dc. it's christians, not jews, but isn't easy to hate the jews? especially in a majority muslim country?

most estimates actually have the number of jews who died in 9/11 at around 400-500. that means roughly 10% of the people who died in 9/11 were jews. new york has a very high population of jewish people for the united states - 9.4%. this means the number of jews who died in 9/11 were representative of (and perhaps slightly higher) than their population density in new york city.

just take a look at http://www.9-11heroes.us/victims-world-trade-center.php .
this page is a list of names of people who died in 9/11. look for names like "Cohen" "...stein" "...itz" "...sky" "Levi" "Levin" "Levine" etc. these are some pretty common jewish names.

please, don't believe propoganda that's going to make you hate people you don't even know. we're getting real good at it here, in the united states, and folks are getting good at it all over. don't lift up hatred like it's a virtue. please.

peace and blessings

puck's picture
puck
70 pencils

Istanbul,

you say you do not hate american people, just the government. you say that you are frustrated because Americans "are conditioned to afraid of those people and countries".

yet you also said:
"They killed all not jewish americans. (Jews were warned after strike that not to go their jobs)"

which is an out-and-out lie. 400-500 jews died in the trade towers on 9/11.

don't you see the contradiction in this? while you are mad at americans for being so brainwashed to hate muslims and think they are out to take over the world, you are brainwashed to hate jews and compare israel to hitler (which is not only off-the-mark, but quite a cliché).

do you forget that modern-day palestine was once a colony of the ottoman empire? do you forget that both jews and arabs were living there under turkish rule until the ottomans were defeated in their bid for world domination in world war i?

do you forget that, after the british started reallocating the land from the ottomans, they proposed a government made up of arabs and jews (and the jews were a little wary, as the arabs would have had a majority). however, most arabs refused to be a part of a government that had any jews in it.

further down the road, Fauzi el Kaukji, a Turkish expatriot, was involved in a the Great Uprising, which took more arab lives than jewish lives. he was in alliance with Haj Amin al-Husseini, a progenitor of palestinian nationalism, who was allied closely with Nazi germany.

then, during world war ii, when jews were being exterminated by the nazis, did the british offer them safety? no. did the turks? no. did the arabs in palestine/ syria/ etc.? certainly not.

in fact, i belive the dominican republic was the only nation to increase immigration quotas during the holocaust.

further, the british restricted legal immigration to palestine even more during the holocaust than beforehand, per the 1939 White Paper.

6 million jews were exterminated and no one offered them safety, with the exceptions of the dominican republic and china (which had no immigration restrictions at the time) even once the mass extermination was revealed mid way through the war.

was this all part of your massive jewish conspiracy?

there is an amazing amount of history in palestine. to reduce it all down to jewish/united states conspiracy is not only bigoted and anti-semitic, it is small-minded and ignorant. warring has been going on in israel/palestine for thousands of years. you should know, your turkish/ottoman empire fought back the mameluks there, then fought with napoleon there, then had problems with uprisings of palestinian arabs against the ottomans (this was in the late 1700s, when the united states was a brand new nation with no military to speak of).

let's go farther back - have you ever heard of the crusades? when the christian soldiers forbade jews to live even near jerusalem and slaughtered muslims by the hundreds? this was after caliph umar had been protecting palestinian jews and muslims and oversaw, possibly, more interreligious harmony than has existed ever since.

further, neither of us has access to the truth about most any modern military actions, so i suggest you try not to speak with such certainty that the u.s. government planned 9/11.

it was certainly convenient for them (as was the bombing of the german parliament for hitler), and they used it to consolidate power, but that does not mean they planned it.

finally, do not think you know us better than you do. our relations are heavily mediated. if we don't work through how our environment portray/betray us to one another, we won't be getting anywhere positive anytime soon.

i have not said a word of hate about palestinians, muslims, even the turkish people. yet, you seem convinced that there is some overarching jewish conspiracy. you think the jewish people are bad people - and you are speaking of half of my family. be careful.

when we generalize and believe myths about other people because of their religion, race, culture, etc., we open ourselves up to powerful and terrible forces. the same forces which allowed many palestinian and arab leaders to ally with nazi germany during world war ii.

let me be clear here. i think your perspective is frightfully narrow. you hold on to being proud of being turkish, but refuse to be responsible for the turkish government's actions. in fact, you refuse to even hold them responsible for their own actions, saying they are just CIA puppets.

in the u.s., we could say the same thing of our elected government... that they are simply representatives of a "permanent" government made up of those with appointed and/ or life-long positions - such as the CIA. heck, George HW Bush (the first one) was the Director of Central Intelligence before he became vice president and then president. now, his son's president.

at the same time as we cannot overburden ourselves by pretending we actually hold any sway over our "democratic" governments, we do need to take responsibility for ourselves in this mess. what are we, as citizens of the world, as brothers and sisters, doing to work toward peace? toward equity and honesty? toward the liberation of all beings?

peace and blessings

griffoso's picture
griffoso
13 pencils

After reading the comments on this poster I see exactly what impact a composition like this can have on the thoughts and feelings of the individual's of the world.

Laying blame on a country,(in this case the USA), has brought up some very disturbing discussion between all of you. I can feel the pain of some and contempt of others on this issue, the facts can be misdirected and this allows people to stand for what they see as being right or just.

Do we really know how any agency extracts the information from a prisoner? Unless we have first hand information on the process or tactics of the interrogation in any country, it is hard to form an oppinion that is accurate.

Pointing fingers and laying blame on an administration or individual in a general manner can raise hate and discontent from all parties involved. So should we play into the authors hands and become part of the problem? Or should we see this as being an awareness and become an advocate toward the beginning of a solution?

observant vicky's picture
observant vicky
194 pencils

very good Idea straight forward and copy is also very simple ....good one. social ad should be like this because everybody can understand it.

thendral58's picture
thendral58
11 pencils

Such skillful art direction have contributed to bring down the Bush administration. And if Obama or any other person continues the same legacy ..... such campaigns have the capability to dethrone them too.......... Beware of Amnesty International. The Voice of the Oppressed.

__Thendral__________________________________________________________________________________________

The Dream is not what you see in sleep, Dream is the thing which does not let you sleep - APJ Abdul Kalam

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